Adjustable Outhaul

[John Lechmanik]

Well after trying to use an adjustable outhaul for the last year I'm about
to give up. I must be doing something wrong...

It's on a Chinook boom with a Chinook outhaul kit. The sail it's being used
on is a Retro 7.5. At the clew end of the sail there is a pulley attached
to the clew of the sail and 3 pulleys built into the boom end. It is set
up the way chinook recommends it
(http://www.chinooksailing.com/web03/components.html) with an adjustment
line on each side of the boom.

It seems to work, but takes a lot of strength to change the sail while
sailing. I've tried moving the cleat closer to my grip (seems a bit close
now, when jibing my hand is a little squeezed next to it) to see if that
made it any easier. I have the cleat on top of the boom.

My problems seem to be pulling on it (releasing it isn't that hard) and
maintaining my sail trim (and my board trim, I tend to round up). Getting
it to cleat (sometimes after finally getting it pulled in, it just releases
back) also seems to be difficult.

Do you use your back hand or your front hand to trim? I've been using my
back hand. On land it seems easy to trim the sail, but under sail it seems
very difficult (almost useless).

Any suggestions?

[LeeD]

I've got a long Gulftech set up for 8+ sails, and a wave set up one
side, plus a few using Sailworks and Windwing web strap adjusters.
Stay hooked in, pull towards your harness line connectors, after
releasing.
Set them up about 20" behind COE of the sail.
Just practice, like anything else, you get better with time and
experience.

[The Dog]

Post by John Lechmanik
Well after trying to use an adjustable outhaul for the last year I'm about
to give up. I must be doing something wrong...

[snip]

Post by John Lechmanik
Any suggestions?

You're probably not doing anything wrong.

I changed the line in the back end of the Chinook outhaul system and
fixed some of the problems you're seeing. The line that came with
the kit is the 4mm Pelican. I found a 3mm Marlow low stretch line
that works much better through the tail piece pulleys.

I'm probably going to change out the pulleys that came with the
Chinook kit for a couple of Harken Airblocks. That should take care
of any remaining friction.

The Sailworks kit seems to be easier for me, but I also only use it
on my 8.0 sail. It would seem intuitive that an 8.0 would be easier
to adjust outhaul on than a 9.8 or 11.0 (which I rig on bigger
booms).

I use the back hand to adjust. But I also luff the sail just a bit
when I'm trying to increase outhaul. Takes a bit of practice not to
round up a bunch. And harness line balance and cleat position are
critical.

Dog

[kurt]

Basically what Dog said. You gotta luff up ever so slightly w/larger
sails (anything >6.5 in my opinion). I set my cleat(s) quite a ways
back; almost 24" behind the COE. It's set up to give me the best
mechanical advantage position for pulling w/my rear arm.

When I sheet in, I get the line uncleated, get my rear hand on the
boom, & slide my hand up the boom while holding the line; that way, I
can still provide a little stability to the rear of the boom. I have a
plastic stopper button on the end of the line to help my grip. Play
around w/the angle of the cleat also; mine is set up so that it is
(sort of) on the "outside" of the boom. Recleating is easier for me
that way.

Those pictures of Bruce P casually sailing along under full power while
sheeting in w/seemingly no effort are deceiving; I've never been able
to do it. It took me a season of fiddling around, but I've finally
gotten mildly proficient @ it. Another thing; unless you're racing,
you won't really be messing w/it all that much. Once you get it, you
won't sail without it; it's what makes sailing w/large rigs possible.

I'd also get skinny line & McLube the crap out of everything. Every
little bit helps.

[a***@yahoo.com]

Post by kurt
Those pictures of Bruce P casually sailing along under full power while
sheeting in w/seemingly no effort are deceiving; I've never been able
to do it. It took me a season of fiddling around, but I've finally

Actually, they're not deceiving at all - he's just using a superior AO
kit (his own, for sale at www.sailworks.com), and he's got a very
balanced rig and stance. When using a rather complicated setup with all
kinds of Harken blocks, the Clamcleats on the boom, and lots of lube on
all the low-friction line, I sometimes had a hard time getting OH
pulled in on large race sails w/o sheeting out. With the Sailworks kit,
that's not a problem. This is one of those cases where there's a
simpler, lighter, more functioanal solution to the problem. Why most
racers still insist on carrying a half pound of extra hardware on their
booms and clews is truly beyond me...

Post by kurt
Another thing; unless you're racing,
you won't really be messing w/it all that much. Once you get it, you
won't sail without it; it's what makes sailing w/large rigs possible.

I find that I very actively use my AO even on a 5.0 in 35 knots. Once
you get used to the precision with which you can adjust your rig to the
conditions, and the ease with which you can do it, it becomes second
nature.

Post by kurt
I'd also get skinny line & McLube the crap out of everything. Every
little bit helps.

I tend not to lube my OH - just the occasional bit of candle wax on the
skinny line running through the grommet to prevent fraying. The metal
buckles, btw, are amazingly corrosion resistant. I don't ever rinse the
salt off them (unless I head down to the Gorge to sail, but from
October through May it's pretty much all salt all the time), yet they
survive that just fine. I remember having metal cam buckles on harness
lines, and if I didn't rinse those after every session, they quickly
became worthless. Not so with these.

The wear part on this OH kit is the webbing - after about two to three
seasons of hard use, it starts looking a little frayed. I'd say that's
a pretty good deal compared to the cost of keeping all the components
of the clam cleat version in good working order...

/Andreas

[The Dog]

Post by a***@yahoo.com

Post by kurt
Those pictures of Bruce P casually sailing along under full power while
sheeting in w/seemingly no effort are deceiving; I've never been able
to do it. It took me a season of fiddling around, but I've finally

Actually, they're not deceiving at all - he's just using a superior AO
kit (his own, for sale at www.sailworks.com), and he's got a very
balanced rig and stance. When using a rather complicated setup with all
kinds of Harken blocks, the Clamcleats on the boom, and lots of lube on
all the low-friction line, I sometimes had a hard time getting OH
pulled in on large race sails w/o sheeting out. With the Sailworks kit,
that's not a problem. This is one of those cases where there's a
simpler, lighter, more functioanal solution to the problem. Why most
racers still insist on carrying a half pound of extra hardware on their
booms and clews is truly beyond me...

[devil's advocate on]

The one downside IMO of the Sailworks kit is that I have to set it up
so that the line from the front section always falls into an area of
the boom where I grab. I find it somewhat annoying to reach up and
grab something other than boom.

Plus, the buckle on the Sailworks is always in a different place when I
go to release it.

The weight difference is only 5 oz... But some of that could be all
the extra packaging of the Chinook kit. ;-)

Dog
--
http://www.mariner-sails.com (new and improved)
http://www.thedoghouse.net (not new, but regularly updated)

Do I have to explain IP addressing again?

[s***@fit.edu]

I agree. I have never used the sailworks-style system, however having
ropes in the grip area of the boom has never appealed to me. Also,I
don't like the idea of the release button always being in a different
place. And it looks like it would be hard to regulate the amount out
when you push the button. In other words, you push the button and the
outhaul would just dump completly out rather than a cleat/line system
where you release the line from the cleat and regulate the amount out
and if you do let too much out, you can pull back in with your hand in
the same position.

Again, never used the system, but it doesn't look as appealing to me.

sm

[The Dog]

Post by s***@fit.edu
I agree. I have never used the sailworks-style system, however having
ropes in the grip area of the boom has never appealed to me. Also,I
don't like the idea of the release button always being in a different
place. And it looks like it would be hard to regulate the amount out
when you push the button. In other words, you push the button and the
outhaul would just dump completly out rather than a cleat/line system
where you release the line from the cleat and regulate the amount out
and if you do let too much out, you can pull back in with your hand in
the same position.
Again, never used the system, but it doesn't look as appealing to me.

I actually find it easier to regulate the amount of outhaul you release
by the simple fact that the buckle moves. In fact, it's harder for me
to release a bunch of outhaul than it is to release just a bit.

And the Sailworks system is definitely easier to set up.

I use both systems and would buy either again.

But what I really want is an adjustable ouhaul that works on multiple
size sails with an absolute minimum of fuss.

Dog
--
http://www.mariner-sails.com (new and improved)
http://www.thedoghouse.net (not new, but regularly updated)

Do I have to explain IP addressing again?

[s***@fit.edu]

I didn't think about that, but yes, I guess when you're holding the
button, you can regulate how much you let the buckle slide. Still, if
you let too much out, you have to reach forward to grab the tensioner.
Pretty minor, but with the rope/cleat system, you just grab the rope
and adjust in or out.

Regarding the multiple sail issue. What I did was make a custom length
line for each sail. The line that runs to the tail of the boom (not
the two lines that actually go through the cleats). The lines on the
cleats stay with the boom, the line that goes through the clew is
custom lenght and stays with each sail. When rigging different sails,
you've got a line that is the exact right lenght for that sail so you
don't have to guess how tight to make it or where to put the knot. It
rigs virtually the same every time and you don't have to deal with
excess line when using smaller sails.

sm

[unknown]

On 30 May 2006 08:14:09 -0700, "The Dog"

Post by The Dog
The one downside IMO of the Sailworks kit is that I have to set it up
so that the line from the front section always falls into an area of
the boom where I grab. I find it somewhat annoying to reach up and
grab something other than boom.

Brian, if you turn the exit point of the attachment hitch to the
lower, forward quarter of the boom, the trailing line will not
interfere with an overhand grip. Rotating the axis of the line exit
is as easy as repositioning your harness lines.

Post by The Dog
Plus, the buckle on the Sailworks is always in a different place when I
go to release it.

Yes the CamLock buckles moves fore and aft with the adjustment, but
this action also provides additional purchase. Our two sided outhaul
system has 8:1 purchase WITHOUT any additional pulleys bolted on the
clew grommet of the sail.

The spring-loaded Camlock/webbing system has one ease-of-use attribute
that I find superior to the Clamcleat systems: controlled release of
small increments of outhaul. It is very easy to feather off 1 or 2
cm of tension with the textured ribbed webbing giving a tactile "dut,
dut, dut" feel for every 3 mm of movement (in or out).

The Clamcleat systems require the line to be tension slightly to be
released (or given a good whip flick) which can lead to over
adjustment and/or a loss of reference position.

Both styles of outhaul system are very functional for adjusting the
outhaul setting. Each has their own personality, advantages and
disadvantages, making the differences between them somewhat subjective
in the end.

Which do you prefer, a lager or an ale?

Bruce Peterson
Sailworks R+D
(who cares not which outhaul system you use, so long as you use one!)

*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

[s***@fit.edu]

Post by unknown
this action also provides additional purchase. Our two sided outhaul
system has 8:1 purchase WITHOUT any additional pulleys bolted on the
clew grommet of the sail

Are you saying that your line only passes through the clew grommet one
time?
I could still get 8:1 purchase without any pulleys on the clew grommet
of my sail too, but then I would have to have the outlhaul line passing
through the grommet twice which would be a ton of friction.

sm

[sailworksman]

Yes, the outhaul line only passes through the clew grommet once.

Bruce Peterson
Sailworks

Post by s***@fit.edu
Are you saying that your line only passes through the clew grommet one
time?
I could still get 8:1 purchase without any pulleys on the clew grommet
of my sail too, but then I would have to have the outlhaul line passing
through the grommet twice which would be a ton of friction.
sm

[The Dog]

Post by sailworksman
Yes, the outhaul line only passes through the clew grommet once.
Bruce Peterson
Sailworks

And you get an 8:1 purchase? That must be some of that new math I
keep hearing about.

Sorry Bruce... I'm gonna have to make you prove that one with
drawings.

Dog

[sailworksman]

Post by The Dog
And you get an 8:1 purchase? That must be some of that new math I
keep hearing about.
Sorry Bruce... I'm gonna have to make you prove that one with
drawings.

Oops, mea culpa ...... its 4:1 with a single line through the pulley,
or 8:1 if you bolt on clew pulleys. My apoligies for confusing the
purchase.

Bruce Peterson
Sailworks

[The Dog]

Post by unknown

Post by The Dog
The one downside IMO of the Sailworks kit is that I have to set it up
so that the line from the front section always falls into an area of
the boom where I grab. I find it somewhat annoying to reach up and
grab something other than boom.

Brian, if you turn the exit point of the attachment hitch to the
lower, forward quarter of the boom, the trailing line will not
interfere with an overhand grip. Rotating the axis of the line exit
is as easy as repositioning your harness lines.

I guess I have big hands, and don't monkey grip. I've never found a
rotation point where I don't hit the lines.

Post by unknown

Post by The Dog
Plus, the buckle on the Sailworks is always in a different place when I
go to release it.

Yes the CamLock buckles moves fore and aft with the adjustment, but
this action also provides additional purchase. Our two sided outhaul
system has 8:1 purchase WITHOUT any additional pulleys bolted on the
clew grommet of the sail.

I still use a clew pulley with your kit. Everyone I can think of who
uses your kit uses a clew pulley. I'd much rather deal with the 1.5 oz
clew pulley than have to totally re-thread the outhaul line everytime I
rig.

And unless my math is way wrong, the Chinook kit is also 8:1. But I'm
really busy and can't find my calculator.

Post by unknown
The spring-loaded Camlock/webbing system has one ease-of-use attribute
that I find superior to the Clamcleat systems: controlled release of
small increments of outhaul. It is very easy to feather off 1 or 2
cm of tension with the textured ribbed webbing giving a tactile "dut,
dut, dut" feel for every 3 mm of movement (in or out).

I think I said the same thing, but with fewer words.

Post by unknown
The Clamcleat systems require the line to be tension slightly to be
released (or given a good whip flick) which can lead to over
adjustment and/or a loss of reference position.

I do find yours easier to release... once I find the buckle. And
when I need to adjust, it's usually cause I've gotten out there a bit
past the hairy edge. I always know where the cam cleat is.

What I need to do is run a "sender" bungee from side to side that I can
use to feel my way more quickly back to the buckle.

Post by unknown
Both styles of outhaul system are very functional for adjusting the
outhaul setting. Each has their own personality, advantages and
disadvantages, making the differences between them somewhat subjective
in the end.

What you said...

Post by unknown
Which do you prefer, a lager or an ale?

Yes.

What size line is that in the Sailworks system anyway? 2mm?

Post by unknown
Bruce Peterson
Sailworks R+D
(who cares not which outhaul system you use, so long as you use one!)

Dog
(who agrees with Bruce most of the time)
--
http://www.mariner-sails.com (new and improved)
http://www.thedoghouse.net (not new, but regularly updated)

Do I have to explain IP addressing again?

[wsurfn]

Bruce:

What is the diameter of the spectra line that you guys use for the line
that goes throught the boom tail pulleys?

Any wear or threading issues with older HPL booms?

Thanks in advance,

Mark

[sailworksman]

Hi Mark,

We use Sampson's 1/8" (3.2 mm) Amsteel 12-strand Dyneema line for the
outhaul systems. Its rated to 5,000 lbs and has great wear properties
- I have some of these outhaul lines into their thrid season of use.
Marlow's Exel D-12 is also good.

The older HPL booms with the 4-pulley carbon tail end can have fairly
abrasive feeder holes to the pulleys. Sharp carbon edges are like
daggers to line under tension, so you'll want to check and buff these
if necessary. Line wear from these holes is not uncommon, especially
if your boom is set long. I found rolling a small strip of fine
sandpaper and mounting it the cordless drill as a sanding spindle makes
for quick deburring of any sharp edges to these feeder holes.

For easy line threading I tightly wrap packing tape to the end of the
line to make a hard leader that's easy to feed (like your shoe laces).
Polyester heat shrink tubing also works if you can find the thicker
kind.

Bruce Peterson
Sailworks

Post by wsurfn
What is the diameter of the spectra line that you guys use for the line
that goes throught the boom tail pulleys?
Any wear or threading issues with older HPL booms?
Thanks in advance,
Mark

[wsurfn]

Bruce, thank you so much for taking the time to reply. That makes
complete sense based on my observations as well. Great advice.

One problem I have not heard mentioned on this thread with the clam
cleat system, is the grip of the clam cleat on the boom itself.

I have had the cleat slide down the boom end with two different booms
(HPL and Gulftech-Autima). Both times I used the blue plastic sleeve
with the supplied rubber spacer piece.

I have had to replace the rubber with a thicker and larger piece to get
better friction on the boom. FWIW, both times, I did not use a clew
grommet pulley. When it happens on the water, it is a bummer,
especially if it is cranking.

[s***@fit.edu]

Post by wsurfn
I have had the cleat slide down the boom end with two different booms
(HPL and Gulftech-Autima). Both times I used the blue plastic sleeve
with the supplied rubber spacer piece.

When I first started using the adjustable outhaul w/clam cleats, I was
worried about the cleats possibly slipping down the boom arm. I simply
took some electrical plastic zip ties, spliced two together and wrapped
them around the boom arm just aft of the cleat. I snugged them down
such that the two nubs (the piece that locks the strip) were
approximately 180deg apart from one another. Then I trimmed off the
excess strip. The nubs act as a barrier to prevent the cleat from
slipping. You could use more than two ties if you were really worried
about it. I never had any problems with slipping on HPL and Chinook
booms.

sm

[Dan Weiss]

I know that the Fiberspar AO kit (Clam cleat) ships with two different
shim sets to accomodate larger or smaller boom diameters. The blue one
is thinner. The thicker shim set is brown. Maybe you can find some of
these near you. I have a spare set of the brown shims kicking around.
E-mail me directly and I'll try to find them and send them off to you.

-Dan

Post by wsurfn
Bruce, thank you so much for taking the time to reply. That makes
complete sense based on my observations as well. Great advice.
One problem I have not heard mentioned on this thread with the clam
cleat system, is the grip of the clam cleat on the boom itself.
I have had the cleat slide down the boom end with two different booms
(HPL and Gulftech-Autima). Both times I used the blue plastic sleeve
with the supplied rubber spacer piece.
I have had to replace the rubber with a thicker and larger piece to get
better friction on the boom. FWIW, both times, I did not use a clew
grommet pulley. When it happens on the water, it is a bummer,
especially if it is cranking.

[kurt]

The shim thing can be mildly problematic. I bought some thin foam
sheet @ a hardware store that worked better than either the blue or
brown stuff that came w/the cleats. Another really good shim is HVAC
equipment plenum sealing tape; it's black, thick & kinda gooey; it
squishes down & holds stuff really good when clamped.

[The Dog]

Post by kurt
The shim thing can be mildly problematic. I bought some thin foam
brown stuff that came w/the cleats. Another really good shim is HVAC
equipment plenum sealing tape; it's black, thick & kinda gooey; it
squishes down & holds stuff really good when clamped.

And mountain bikers can use pieces of old inner tubes.

Dog
--
http://www.mariner-sails.com (new and improved)
http://www.thedoghouse.net (not new, but regularly updated)

Do I have to explain IP addressing again?

[wsurfn]

Post by Dan Weiss
I know that the Fiberspar AO kit (Clam cleat) ships with two different
shim sets to accomodate larger or smaller boom diameters. The blue one
is thinner. The thicker shim set is brown. Maybe you can find some of
these near you. I have a spare set of the brown shims kicking around.
E-mail me directly and I'll try to find them and send them off to you.

Dan:

That is kind of you to offer. My set came with the brown sleeves as
well, but I believe these are larger for larger grip boms like old
Gulftechs.

Mark

[Bill (NC/ME)]

I remember the first time I adjusted my outhaul on the fly. My sail
slipped through the wind (because of my change in position) and I fell
in the water laughing. ;-) I learned that lesson quickly.

[s***@fit.edu]

One of the things that I did that made a big difference was change to
ball bearing blocks instead of that chinook screw-in grommet clew
pulley. The chinook piece is ok, but once you get ball bearing blocks,
it will be noticably easier. I will try to describe the system I used:
Basically, I took two Harken blocks, micros I think (one size up from
the smallest) and I drilled out the rivet that holds the plastic sheave
in the stainless bracket. I took a #10 stanless bolt long enough to
pass through the two pulleys and the grommet, put a spacer in between.
Also, thin washers between the plastic sheaves and the brackets, that
way you can tighten down the bolt and still allow the sheave to spin.
Put a nylock nut on the bolt and cut the bolt to the exact length so it
won't damage/get hung up on the boom.

I also put a ball bearing block on my boom (which is and HPL). I tied
on one of the smallest Harken blocks (16mm I think it's called). That
helped a lot too. Actually tying it on was nice because when you
release the outhaul and the boom drops, the block stays aligned to the
lines.

This is not the greatest explanation, but hopefully it helps. The
point is, these "stock" outhaul systems are just ok. Using ball
bearings wherever possible will make a big difference.

Also, as others have said, you have to sheet out slightly and lean your
upper body in towards the boom to tighten the outhaul. This should be
somewhat natural because you would typically tighten the outhaul when
you are getting back-handed. So, when you release your back hand from
the boom to grab the outhaul line, the sail will want to unsheet.

sm

Post by John Lechmanik
Well after trying to use an adjustable outhaul for the last year I'm about
to give up. I must be doing something wrong...
It's on a Chinook boom with a Chinook outhaul kit. The sail it's being used
on is a Retro 7.5. At the clew end of the sail there is a pulley attached
to the clew of the sail and 3 pulleys built into the boom end. It is set
up the way chinook recommends it
(http://www.chinooksailing.com/web03/components.html) with an adjustment
line on each side of the boom.
It seems to work, but takes a lot of strength to change the sail while
sailing. I've tried moving the cleat closer to my grip (seems a bit close
now, when jibing my hand is a little squeezed next to it) to see if that
made it any easier. I have the cleat on top of the boom.
My problems seem to be pulling on it (releasing it isn't that hard) and
maintaining my sail trim (and my board trim, I tend to round up). Getting
it to cleat (sometimes after finally getting it pulled in, it just releases
back) also seems to be difficult.
Do you use your back hand or your front hand to trim? I've been using my
back hand. On land it seems easy to trim the sail, but under sail it seems
very difficult (almost useless).
Any suggestions?
--
John Lechmanik
To reply directly remember to remove the NOSPAM from my address.

[Dan Weiss]

To continue this train of thought, the key to adj. OH systems is
getting the friction as low as possible, while giving your fingers
something to grip when pulling. I use a simple Spectra braid purchased
from Murray's Marine. It is super slippery and, while it doesn't melt
easily and can fray without sealing the ends, it is very low stretch.

Chinook makes two types of pulley wheels, one of which is best left to
small sails. The better of the two uses brass rollers rather than just
the smooth plastic around which the line would run.

sm, below, makes a great point about building your own clew block.
That's what I've done (and purchased a pre-built one from Tinho at
Calema) and it works better than anything else. Finally, be sure you
are running super-smooth on the boom end. Otherwise, mount a cheek
block. The larger wheels will beat most pulleys countained in most
production booms.

-Dan

Post by s***@fit.edu
One of the things that I did that made a big difference was change to
ball bearing blocks instead of that chinook screw-in grommet clew
pulley. The chinook piece is ok, but once you get ball bearing blocks,
Basically, I took two Harken blocks, micros I think (one size up from
the smallest) and I drilled out the rivet that holds the plastic sheave
in the stainless bracket. I took a #10 stanless bolt long enough to
pass through the two pulleys and the grommet, put a spacer in between.
Also, thin washers between the plastic sheaves and the brackets, that
way you can tighten down the bolt and still allow the sheave to spin.
Put a nylock nut on the bolt and cut the bolt to the exact length so it
won't damage/get hung up on the boom.
I also put a ball bearing block on my boom (which is and HPL). I tied
on one of the smallest Harken blocks (16mm I think it's called). That
helped a lot too. Actually tying it on was nice because when you
release the outhaul and the boom drops, the block stays aligned to the
lines.
This is not the greatest explanation, but hopefully it helps. The
point is, these "stock" outhaul systems are just ok. Using ball
bearings wherever possible will make a big difference.
Also, as others have said, you have to sheet out slightly and lean your
upper body in towards the boom to tighten the outhaul. This should be
somewhat natural because you would typically tighten the outhaul when
you are getting back-handed. So, when you release your back hand from
the boom to grab the outhaul line, the sail will want to unsheet.
sm

Post by John Lechmanik
Well after trying to use an adjustable outhaul for the last year I'm about
to give up. I must be doing something wrong...
It's on a Chinook boom with a Chinook outhaul kit. The sail it's being used
on is a Retro 7.5. At the clew end of the sail there is a pulley attached
to the clew of the sail and 3 pulleys built into the boom end. It is set
up the way chinook recommends it
(http://www.chinooksailing.com/web03/components.html) with an adjustment
line on each side of the boom.
It seems to work, but takes a lot of strength to change the sail while
sailing. I've tried moving the cleat closer to my grip (seems a bit close
now, when jibing my hand is a little squeezed next to it) to see if that
made it any easier. I have the cleat on top of the boom.
My problems seem to be pulling on it (releasing it isn't that hard) and
maintaining my sail trim (and my board trim, I tend to round up). Getting
it to cleat (sometimes after finally getting it pulled in, it just releases
back) also seems to be difficult.
Do you use your back hand or your front hand to trim? I've been using my
back hand. On land it seems easy to trim the sail, but under sail it seems
very difficult (almost useless).
Any suggestions?
--
John Lechmanik
To reply directly remember to remove the NOSPAM from my address.

[kurt]

Andreas, are you working for Sailworks now?

I've got 2 of the Sailworks kits (I'm an all Retro quiver) for my
smaller booms; all that about Sailworks little cam cleat being superior
is silly. It's a decent system, but it's only decent. Had a couple
webs fray out, had 2 cleats fail (both while sailing, one fell apart
and the other pulled through so that it wouldn't purchase). It's a
good thing they include one w/all their sails; the extras came in handy
when the original one's crap out.

Also, the bit about lube being unnecessary(?); I mean, you don't have
to lube, but who the heck thinks lubrication doesn't make stuff slide
easier? And, all those silly complicated blocks are ball bearing; I
think someone figured out a while back that ball bearings make stuff
work easier. At least, I'm pretty sure high school physics tells us
multi-purchase ball bearing systems work nicely. Mine do anyway. My
"complicated system" w/all the blocks on my Formula booms has held up
w/absolutely no problems for 5 seasons. What's the secret? Spectra,
Harken, lube, & cleaning.

I salute BP for including the adjustable outhaul w/his sails; it's the
thing that taught me how important AOH is. I wish every sail company
was that meticulous & cared that much.

[a***@yahoo.com]

Post by kurt
Andreas, are you working for Sailworks now?

Nope. Amateur racer and Sailworks/Roberts team rider - not an employee,
and I don't have any financial or professional interest in people
buying Sailworks gear, including the AO kit.

Post by kurt
I've got 2 of the Sailworks kits (I'm an all Retro quiver) for my
smaller booms; all that about Sailworks little cam cleat being superior
is silly. It's a decent system, but it's only decent.

Depends on your perspective. For me, the system has better
functionality (as to my preferences, the adjustment works better, with
more ease and precision) at lower cost, with no risk or ripping your
hand on a boom mounted clam cleat or a clew-mounted pulley system, and
reduced complexity and weight (the last one is fairly insignificant).
To me, that's superior. If you strongly prefer the way the clam-cleat
systems work, I could see how YMMV.

Post by kurt
Had a couple
webs fray out, had 2 cleats fail (both while sailing, one fell apart
and the other pulled through so that it wouldn't purchase). It's a
good thing they include one w/all their sails; the extras came in handy
when the original one's crap out.

I'm suprised by the cleat falling apart; as for the 'pulling through' -
that might have been webbing frayed/thinned by use. I'm surprised,
though, that you go through them so quickly - mine seem to last a good
long time despite hard use.

Post by kurt
Also, the bit about lube being unnecessary(?); I mean, you don't have
to lube, but who the heck thinks lubrication doesn't make stuff slide
easier?

I'm a great fan of proper lubrication ;) In this case, however, I'm
finding that it's not worth the time. McLube is a great product, but in
my case, the only thing that might benefit from lube would be the stock
roller pulleys on my HPL booms rear end. And the system of a whole is
smooth and low-friction enough that I simply don't bother. I was
seriously surprised when I first tried this years back - I'd expected
way more friction and lots of pulling force required. I have three sets
of hardware for clam-cleat OH systems in the garage somewhere because
this works better for me.

Post by kurt
I salute BP for including the adjustable outhaul w/his sails; it's the
thing that taught me how important AOH is. I wish every sail company
was that meticulous & cared that much.

Agreed. And I'd extend that to most consumer products, automotive, and
IS/IT companies...

/Andreas

[jeff feehan]

i haven't used the either the chinook, or the sailworks outhauls.
i make my own with clamcleat and harken parts. they work well.

any outhual will be difficult to trim when going upwind fully powered up.

still, i think the sheaves in the chinook boom rear end tend to freeze up.
also, i'm pretty sure they don't have bearings.

with the home made setup, all the blocks have bearings, which helps.

if your boom sheaves are stuck, and you have a relatively high-friction
line, like the blue and black line that chinook uses, you will definitely
have difficulty trimming when loaded.

are the boom sheaves stuck, or do they spin freely?


jeff

Post by John Lechmanik
Well after trying to use an adjustable outhaul for the last year I'm about
to give up. I must be doing something wrong...
It's on a Chinook boom with a Chinook outhaul kit. The sail it's being used
on is a Retro 7.5. At the clew end of the sail there is a pulley attached
to the clew of the sail and 3 pulleys built into the boom end. It is set
up the way chinook recommends it
(http://www.chinooksailing.com/web03/components.html) with an adjustment
line on each side of the boom.
It seems to work, but takes a lot of strength to change the sail while
sailing. I've tried moving the cleat closer to my grip (seems a bit close
now, when jibing my hand is a little squeezed next to it) to see if that
made it any easier. I have the cleat on top of the boom.
My problems seem to be pulling on it (releasing it isn't that hard) and
maintaining my sail trim (and my board trim, I tend to round up). Getting
it to cleat (sometimes after finally getting it pulled in, it just releases
back) also seems to be difficult.
Do you use your back hand or your front hand to trim? I've been using my
back hand. On land it seems easy to trim the sail, but under sail it seems
very difficult (almost useless).
Any suggestions?

[John Lechmanik]

Okay all this talk made me look at the boom.

I checked the 3 bearings in the boom. They all seem to move freely. I
checked the two blocks that go in the middle, they seem to move freely. In
fact, it seems REAL strong when trying to resist the pull by hand.

I didn't get a chance to check the bearings on the sail (it's still in the
truck).

So not counting the bearings that are on the sail (It's the Chinook knob
with two bearings.) everything seems to work well.

So I'll try moving the cleat back a bit (just finished moving it forward
thinking that would help) and try twisting it slightly to the outside. And
check the bearing on the sail when I get a chance.

I also seemed to be trying to trim the sail mostly when going up wind. I
guess it's from my boat sailing days. When trying to go upwind as much as
possible, don't you want as flat as a sail as possible if powered up? And a
baggier sail for going off the wind? Or am I missing the point of the
entire trimming process?
--
John Lechmanik

To reply directly remember to remove the NOSPAM from my address.

Post by jeff feehan
i haven't used the either the chinook, or the sailworks outhauls.
i make my own with clamcleat and harken parts. they work well.
any outhual will be difficult to trim when going upwind fully powered up.
still, i think the sheaves in the chinook boom rear end tend to freeze up.
also, i'm pretty sure they don't have bearings.
with the home made setup, all the blocks have bearings, which helps.
if your boom sheaves are stuck, and you have a relatively high-friction
line, like the blue and black line that chinook uses, you will definitely
have difficulty trimming when loaded.
are the boom sheaves stuck, or do they spin freely?
jeff

Post by John Lechmanik
Well after trying to use an adjustable outhaul for the last year I'm
about to give up. I must be doing something wrong...
It's on a Chinook boom with a Chinook outhaul kit. The sail it's being
used on is a Retro 7.5. At the clew end of the sail there is a pulley
attached to the clew of the sail and 3 pulleys built into the boom end.
It is set up the way chinook recommends it
(http://www.chinooksailing.com/web03/components.html) with an adjustment
line on each side of the boom.
It seems to work, but takes a lot of strength to change the sail while
sailing. I've tried moving the cleat closer to my grip (seems a bit
close now, when jibing my hand is a little squeezed next to it) to see if
that made it any easier. I have the cleat on top of the boom.
My problems seem to be pulling on it (releasing it isn't that hard) and
maintaining my sail trim (and my board trim, I tend to round up).
Getting it to cleat (sometimes after finally getting it pulled in, it
just releases back) also seems to be difficult.
Do you use your back hand or your front hand to trim? I've been using my
back hand. On land it seems easy to trim the sail, but under sail it
seems very difficult (almost useless).
Any suggestions?

[jeff feehan]

Post by John Lechmanik
Okay all this talk made me look at the boom.
I checked the 3 bearings in the boom. They all seem to move freely. I
checked the two blocks that go in the middle, they seem to move freely.

that's good. however, it doesn't mean they are spinning freely under
load. nearly any sheave that's not frozen will spin with no load.
it's when the system really gets loaded up that the extra expense
of good ball bearing sheaves pays off.

jeff


In

Post by John Lechmanik
fact, it seems REAL strong when trying to resist the pull by hand.
I didn't get a chance to check the bearings on the sail (it's still in the
truck).
So not counting the bearings that are on the sail (It's the Chinook knob
with two bearings.) everything seems to work well.
So I'll try moving the cleat back a bit (just finished moving it forward
thinking that would help) and try twisting it slightly to the outside. And
check the bearing on the sail when I get a chance.
I also seemed to be trying to trim the sail mostly when going up wind. I
guess it's from my boat sailing days. When trying to go upwind as much as
possible, don't you want as flat as a sail as possible if powered up? And a
baggier sail for going off the wind? Or am I missing the point of the
entire trimming process?

[John Lechmanik]

Okay, I've taken a peak at the West Marine page, and found 16 mm airblocks
and Micro Airblocks. Which ones should be used?

Also I'm a bit confused on the setup. The Chinook boom has three pulleys
built into the end. Am I removing these and somehow replacing them with 3
blocks? Or wiring the new blocks to each of them? Or something else?

Also the kit came with two ronstat blocks. Are these adequate, or do these
need to be replaced also?

Thanks again. (this helps use up a old but still valid $15 credit)...
--
John Lechmanik

To reply directly remember to remove the NOSPAM from my address.

Post by jeff feehan

Post by John Lechmanik
Okay all this talk made me look at the boom.
I checked the 3 bearings in the boom. They all seem to move freely. I
checked the two blocks that go in the middle, they seem to move freely.

that's good. however, it doesn't mean they are spinning freely under
load. nearly any sheave that's not frozen will spin with no load.
it's when the system really gets loaded up that the extra expense
of good ball bearing sheaves pays off.
jeff
In

Post by John Lechmanik
fact, it seems REAL strong when trying to resist the pull by hand.
I didn't get a chance to check the bearings on the sail (it's still in
the truck).
So not counting the bearings that are on the sail (It's the Chinook knob
with two bearings.) everything seems to work well.
So I'll try moving the cleat back a bit (just finished moving it forward
thinking that would help) and try twisting it slightly to the outside.
And check the bearing on the sail when I get a chance.
I also seemed to be trying to trim the sail mostly when going up wind. I
guess it's from my boat sailing days. When trying to go upwind as much
as possible, don't you want as flat as a sail as possible if powered up?
And a baggier sail for going off the wind? Or am I missing the point of
the entire trimming process?

[The Dog]

Post by John Lechmanik
Okay, I've taken a peak at the West Marine page, and found 16 mm airblocks
and Micro Airblocks. Which ones should be used?
Also I'm a bit confused on the setup. The Chinook boom has three pulleys
built into the end. Am I removing these and somehow replacing them with 3
blocks? Or wiring the new blocks to each of them? Or something else?

I have not changed out the pulleys in the end of my Chinook boom.
They seem to work just fine. It's the blocks part way up the boom
that I'm talking about changing.

Now I did hang some Airblocks on an old Gulftech tail piece since it
was built pre adjustable outhaul.

Dog

[jeff feehan]

i think this is about 10 yrs old, but it shows one way of setting up
an outhaul on an HPL boom;

http://www.jfeehan.net/windsurfing/outhaul.html

i put 2 new blocks on the boom end by using the pre-existing holes for
the internal sheaves. the 3rd is tied on.

jeff

Post by John Lechmanik
Okay, I've taken a peak at the West Marine page, and found 16 mm airblocks
and Micro Airblocks. Which ones should be used?
Also I'm a bit confused on the setup. The Chinook boom has three pulleys
built into the end. Am I removing these and somehow replacing them with 3
blocks? Or wiring the new blocks to each of them? Or something else?
Also the kit came with two ronstat blocks. Are these adequate, or do these
need to be replaced also?
Thanks again. (this helps use up a old but still valid $15 credit)...

[s***@fit.edu]

Jeff is exactly right, just because the sheaves seem to spin fine with
no load does not mean they work well while loaded. In my own
experience, it's worth the $20-30 cost of replacing even just that
chinook screw on clew pulley with a ball bearing system.

sm

Post by John Lechmanik
Okay all this talk made me look at the boom.
I checked the 3 bearings in the boom. They all seem to move freely. I
checked the two blocks that go in the middle, they seem to move freely. In
fact, it seems REAL strong when trying to resist the pull by hand.
I didn't get a chance to check the bearings on the sail (it's still in the
truck).
So not counting the bearings that are on the sail (It's the Chinook knob
with two bearings.) everything seems to work well.
So I'll try moving the cleat back a bit (just finished moving it forward
thinking that would help) and try twisting it slightly to the outside. And
check the bearing on the sail when I get a chance.
I also seemed to be trying to trim the sail mostly when going up wind. I
guess it's from my boat sailing days. When trying to go upwind as much as
possible, don't you want as flat as a sail as possible if powered up? And a
baggier sail for going off the wind? Or am I missing the point of the
entire trimming process?
--
John Lechmanik
To reply directly remember to remove the NOSPAM from my address.

Post by jeff feehan
i haven't used the either the chinook, or the sailworks outhauls.
i make my own with clamcleat and harken parts. they work well.
any outhual will be difficult to trim when going upwind fully powered up.
still, i think the sheaves in the chinook boom rear end tend to freeze up.
also, i'm pretty sure they don't have bearings.
with the home made setup, all the blocks have bearings, which helps.
if your boom sheaves are stuck, and you have a relatively high-friction
line, like the blue and black line that chinook uses, you will definitely
have difficulty trimming when loaded.
are the boom sheaves stuck, or do they spin freely?
jeff

Post by John Lechmanik
Well after trying to use an adjustable outhaul for the last year I'm
about to give up. I must be doing something wrong...
It's on a Chinook boom with a Chinook outhaul kit. The sail it's being
used on is a Retro 7.5. At the clew end of the sail there is a pulley
attached to the clew of the sail and 3 pulleys built into the boom end.
It is set up the way chinook recommends it
(http://www.chinooksailing.com/web03/components.html) with an adjustment
line on each side of the boom.
It seems to work, but takes a lot of strength to change the sail while
sailing. I've tried moving the cleat closer to my grip (seems a bit
close now, when jibing my hand is a little squeezed next to it) to see if
that made it any easier. I have the cleat on top of the boom.
My problems seem to be pulling on it (releasing it isn't that hard) and
maintaining my sail trim (and my board trim, I tend to round up).
Getting it to cleat (sometimes after finally getting it pulled in, it
just releases back) also seems to be difficult.
Do you use your back hand or your front hand to trim? I've been using my
back hand. On land it seems easy to trim the sail, but under sail it
seems very difficult (almost useless).
Any suggestions?

[jeff feehan]

Just by way of comparison, on racing sailboats, even small dinghys,
you would pretty much _never_ see a line that is trimmed under load,
rigged without ball bearing sheaves - even lightly loaded lines.

it always amazed me that booms which cost hundreds of dollars can be
made without ball bearing sheaves. the retail price for a single harken
airblock sheave is about $6. i think most carbon race booms now have
ball bearing sheaves, but they didn't always.

jeff

Post by s***@fit.edu
Jeff is exactly right, just because the sheaves seem to spin fine with
no load does not mean they work well while loaded. In my own
experience, it's worth the $20-30 cost of replacing even just that
chinook screw on clew pulley with a ball bearing system.
sm

Post by John Lechmanik
Okay all this talk made me look at the boom.
I checked the 3 bearings in the boom. They all seem to move freely. I
checked the two blocks that go in the middle, they seem to move freely. In
fact, it seems REAL strong when trying to resist the pull by hand.
I didn't get a chance to check the bearings on the sail (it's still in the
truck).
So not counting the bearings that are on the sail (It's the Chinook knob
with two bearings.) everything seems to work well.
So I'll try moving the cleat back a bit (just finished moving it forward
thinking that would help) and try twisting it slightly to the outside. And
check the bearing on the sail when I get a chance.
I also seemed to be trying to trim the sail mostly when going up wind. I
guess it's from my boat sailing days. When trying to go upwind as much as
possible, don't you want as flat as a sail as possible if powered up? And a
baggier sail for going off the wind? Or am I missing the point of the
entire trimming process?
--
John Lechmanik
To reply directly remember to remove the NOSPAM from my address.

Post by jeff feehan
i haven't used the either the chinook, or the sailworks outhauls.
i make my own with clamcleat and harken parts. they work well.
any outhual will be difficult to trim when going upwind fully powered up.
still, i think the sheaves in the chinook boom rear end tend to freeze up.
also, i'm pretty sure they don't have bearings.
with the home made setup, all the blocks have bearings, which helps.
if your boom sheaves are stuck, and you have a relatively high-friction
line, like the blue and black line that chinook uses, you will definitely
have difficulty trimming when loaded.
are the boom sheaves stuck, or do they spin freely?
jeff

Post by John Lechmanik
Well after trying to use an adjustable outhaul for the last year I'm
about to give up. I must be doing something wrong...
It's on a Chinook boom with a Chinook outhaul kit. The sail it's being
used on is a Retro 7.5. At the clew end of the sail there is a pulley
attached to the clew of the sail and 3 pulleys built into the boom end.
It is set up the way chinook recommends it
(http://www.chinooksailing.com/web03/components.html) with an adjustment
line on each side of the boom.
It seems to work, but takes a lot of strength to change the sail while
sailing. I've tried moving the cleat closer to my grip (seems a bit
close now, when jibing my hand is a little squeezed next to it) to see if
that made it any easier. I have the cleat on top of the boom.
My problems seem to be pulling on it (releasing it isn't that hard) and
maintaining my sail trim (and my board trim, I tend to round up).
Getting it to cleat (sometimes after finally getting it pulled in, it
just releases back) also seems to be difficult.
Do you use your back hand or your front hand to trim? I've been using my
back hand. On land it seems easy to trim the sail, but under sail it
seems very difficult (almost useless).
Any suggestions?

[Tom - Chicago]

John:

I use harken airblocks and clamcleats - on my big booms/sails (10.5, 8.0) -
and I always have a knob or handle on the end of the adjustment line to make
it easy to grab and pull. I don't mess with the AO a lot - but I do
usually "set" it for a given session - and only adjust it when there is a
significant wind change or I am going really deep downwind.

As to adjusting it when fully powered - well, I don't race, and I don't do
it. I ease the pressure on the sail, adjust and then go.

Tom - Chicago

Post by John Lechmanik
Okay all this talk made me look at the boom.
I checked the 3 bearings in the boom. They all seem to move freely. I
checked the two blocks that go in the middle, they seem to move freely.
In fact, it seems REAL strong when trying to resist the pull by hand.
I didn't get a chance to check the bearings on the sail (it's still in the
truck).
So not counting the bearings that are on the sail (It's the Chinook knob
with two bearings.) everything seems to work well.
So I'll try moving the cleat back a bit (just finished moving it forward
thinking that would help) and try twisting it slightly to the outside.
And check the bearing on the sail when I get a chance.
I also seemed to be trying to trim the sail mostly when going up wind. I
guess it's from my boat sailing days. When trying to go upwind as much as
possible, don't you want as flat as a sail as possible if powered up? And
a baggier sail for going off the wind? Or am I missing the point of the
entire trimming process?
--
John Lechmanik
To reply directly remember to remove the NOSPAM from my address.

Post by jeff feehan
i haven't used the either the chinook, or the sailworks outhauls.
i make my own with clamcleat and harken parts. they work well.
any outhual will be difficult to trim when going upwind fully powered up.
still, i think the sheaves in the chinook boom rear end tend to freeze up.
also, i'm pretty sure they don't have bearings.
with the home made setup, all the blocks have bearings, which helps.
if your boom sheaves are stuck, and you have a relatively high-friction
line, like the blue and black line that chinook uses, you will definitely
have difficulty trimming when loaded.
are the boom sheaves stuck, or do they spin freely?
jeff

Post by John Lechmanik
Well after trying to use an adjustable outhaul for the last year I'm
about to give up. I must be doing something wrong...
It's on a Chinook boom with a Chinook outhaul kit. The sail it's being
used on is a Retro 7.5. At the clew end of the sail there is a pulley
attached to the clew of the sail and 3 pulleys built into the boom end.
It is set up the way chinook recommends it
(http://www.chinooksailing.com/web03/components.html) with an adjustment
line on each side of the boom.
It seems to work, but takes a lot of strength to change the sail while
sailing. I've tried moving the cleat closer to my grip (seems a bit
close now, when jibing my hand is a little squeezed next to it) to see
if that made it any easier. I have the cleat on top of the boom.
My problems seem to be pulling on it (releasing it isn't that hard) and
maintaining my sail trim (and my board trim, I tend to round up).
Getting it to cleat (sometimes after finally getting it pulled in, it
just releases back) also seems to be difficult.
Do you use your back hand or your front hand to trim? I've been using
my back hand. On land it seems easy to trim the sail, but under sail it
seems very difficult (almost useless).
Any suggestions?

[wsurfn]

Post by John Lechmanik
My problems seem to be pulling on it (releasing it isn't that hard) and
maintaining my sail trim (and my board trim, I tend to round up). Getting
it to cleat (sometimes after finally getting it pulled in, it just releases
back) also seems to be difficult.

My very first carbon boom I bought used in Corpus from a local racer
named Kyle Krebs in the days when Gulftech booms were made by Don Mc.
in Corpus. It had a AO set-up that was much different than the current
ones. It involved adding a harken cheek to the outside of the clamcleat
base, and a system of rope purchases involving two more harken pulleys,
with the rope tail to a bowline loop. You just tied a second line to
the loops (fed though the clew and two boom tail pulleys). There were
also ball bearing Harkens on the old Gulftech carbon boom tails.

It was like butter load or no load.

It was bulky, so the cleat had to be further down the boom. Purchase
was high so you could get a pretty long tail of rope coming out of the
cleat if you did not set it up right. It was kind of like a naked
Harken Magic Box on your boom. Racers are pretty clever. If there is a
better mousetrap, they will find it.